ConCon report

The VoteOnMarriage folks seemed to outnumber the MassEquality side this time, and I handed out about a hundred more flyers to them, including one to Kris Mineau, who seemed interested to learn about same-sex conception (thanks to the people manning the phones at VOM, who seem to have kept their leader ignorant of the most important issue). I was also surprised that Mark Solomon of MassEquality had never heard of EggAndSperm, he took a few minutes to talk to me. He wondered why I thought gay people shouldn't be allowed to have children, and I explained that it wasn't about sperm donation but about actual conception, and he still wondered why that would be genetic engineering, so I explained about genetic imprinting and how genetic engineering is required to get a viable embryo from same-sex parents. He seemed skeptical of any ethical or scientific reasons to prevent same-sex conception. It is notable that he didn't bother to say "what does it have to do with marriage", he immediately moved on to the "why shouldn't it be allowed?" question. I think he might have really heard me when I said that same-sex couples would rather have federal equal protections than a right to be exploited by big biotech into attempting these experiments.

Judiciary Committee alerted

I just delivered hard copy letters to all 15 members of the Judiciary Committee regarding Senate 918, along with print outs of the Independent and GayCityNews articles on same-sex conception. I told the aides I was hoping to get a response, we'll see how that works out. Here's what the letters said:

Dear Representative Webster [no, they didn't all say that],

I have some questions regarding Senate 918, the bill that would amend the laws regarding marriage by adding "any person who otherwise meets the eligibility requirements of this chapter may marry any other eligible person regardless of gender."

Chapter 207 sections 1 and 2 contain very gender specific relations that a man and a woman may not marry. Is the intent of the law to prohibit the opposite gender equivalent, or to allow a man to marry his brother's son, for example? The two sections are not exactly parallel, for a man can marry his son's wife, but a woman may not marry her daughter's husband, so this may result in a conflict within the law.

And a much more important question: Does marriage convey an implied right to conceive children together, or can the state prohibit a marriage from conceiving offspring? In other words, would same-sex marriage allow same-sex couples to attempt to conceive children together, using new genetic engineering techniques that are being developed? Would it be possible to prohibit same-sex conception if there are same-sex marriages, according to the constitutional understanding of marriage rights? Could the SJC be queried if this effect of the law is unclear?

Because it requires unethical experiments with genetic engineering, same-sex conception should be not be allowed. Many ethicists agree that all attempts at conception that do not combine a man's sperm and a woman's egg should be banned, indeed an amendment was just passed in Missouri that prohibits implanting embryos created any other way.

I also think that all marriages should be allowed to conceive their own children; no marriage should be prohibited from combining their gametes. I therefore have been proposing that Civil Unions be created that would be exactly like marriage in every way, except they would not give the couple the right to conceive children together, using their own gametes. This would be consistent with a ban on implanting genetically engineered embryos, while preserving the "basic civil right of man to marry and procreate."

Please consider this issue carefully, as same-sex conception is possible today, and could be tried in humans in only one or two years, and our decisions now about legalizing same-sex marriage might tie our hands when it comes to deciding if same-sex conception should be allowed. Please visit www.eggandsperm.org for links to news reports on same-sex conception experiments.

Looking forward to hearing back from you regarding my questions.

Thank you
John Howard

Definition of Marriage

Jennifer Roback Morse reviews David Blankenhorn's "Future of Marriage" here. They each take a stab at a definition of marriage:

Morse: "Marriage is society’s preferred context for both sexual activity and child-rearing."
Blankenhorn: "Marriage is socially approved sexual intercourse between a man and a woman conceived both as a personal relationship and as an institution, primarily such that any children resulting from the union are– and are understood by society to be– emotionally, morally, practically, and legally affiliated with both of the parents."

Neither of these is strong enough, and not true in all cases. Many marriages are not socially approved, such as when a female school teacher marries her student as soon as he turns 18, etc. Instead of "socially approved", how about "legal", "permitted", "allowed", etc? Those would be true of all marriages. And both authors act mystified about the connection between sex and children.
Here is what I would offer as the definition of marriage:

"Marriage is the right to conceive children together."

The one constant in Stephanie Coontz's "Marriage, a History" is that every marriage was allowed to conceive children together. And that definition fits both Blankenhorn's and Morse's definitions also.
And "conception rights" are very relevent today, since we now need to ask if we should allow same-sex couples to conceive children together. We shouldn't use a definition of marriage that implies that this is a seperate question, or that society can only "prefer" or "approve" but cannot actually go so far as to prohibit or allow. We need to prohibit same-sex conception, and preserve marriage as guaranteeing the right to conceive children together.

Jacoby misses another chance

Jeff Jacoby apparently doesn't read this blog. All marriages are allowed to try to conceive children together - not required to, allowed to. But same-sex couples should not be allowed to conceive children together, because it requires unsafe experiments in genetic engineering to make their genes combine. It is hard to believe, but there are scientists working on this. A mouse was created in 2004 from two female parents, but the success rate was under one percent. In spite of the risks, there are people that insist that same-sex couples should be allowed to try it, right now. Congress should act immediately to enact a law prohibiting this with human beings, to protect children. Only a man and a woman should be allowed to conceive children together.

This is a slightly edited version of a letter to the Globe that won't get printed.

No on HB 1710

Wow, it looks like there will be another chance to convince the Massachusetts legislature not to extend marriage rights - conception rights - to same-sex couples. MassResistance reports that Byron Rushing has filed a bill:

House Bill 1710:
An Act to Protect Massachusetts Families Through Equal Access to Marriage
SECTION 1. Chapter 207 is hereby amended by adding the following new section:—
Section 37A. Any person who otherwise meets the eligibility requirements of this chapter may marry any other eligible person regardless of gender.

Another opportunity to visit the statehouse and make sure all the legislators understand they are voting on allowing same-sex conception. Same-sex couples should not have the right to conceive chhildren together, due to the extreme health risks of the child and the extreme irresponsibility and wastefullness of attempting it. Every couple that is eligible for marriage has the right to conceive children together (guaranteed for as long as they are married), and no couples that are not eligble for marriage have the right to conceive children together.

Silly Washington Amendment

so, this group out in Washington state has drafted an amendment that lots of bloggers are discussing. The amendment would require a marriage to procreate within three years to be a valid marriage, and their intent is to point out that traditional marriage defenders are wrong when they claim that marriage requires procreation. Which of course no one has ever claimed. Marriage grants the right to conceive, it doesn't require it. This right to conceive, or really the right to do things that might result in conception, lasts the duration of the marriage, whether they use it or not. The couple cannot be prohibited from conceiving. Same-sex couples should not be granted the right to conceive. Silly proposals like this expend lots of energy, and these silly arguments would go away if traditional marriage defenders used this argument.

The Corner on Eugenics

John Derbyshire reveals that he is an unabashed eugenicist over at the Corner. (hat tip Secondhand Smoke). I always wondered why he didn't respond to my emails about same-sex conception, and worried it might be because he felt it was a free-market issue. Looks like I was right. But doesn't he see the coming collision? Wesley suggested I email him my question myself, and I posted it here also:

I thought John Derbyshire was opposed to gay marriage, so it is strange that he is pro-eugenics and feels the marketplace should dictate conception practices.

Perhaps he is unaware that the marketplace is working on ways for same-sex couples to conceive children together, by genetically engineering "sperm" for women and "eggs" for men. If Derb is for allowing labs to try whatever they want, then he must be for allowing people to try to conceive with someone of their same sex. But he thinks that these same people should not be allowed to marry the person they intend on conceiving children with?

What sort of message is that to send about marriage? "You can conceive children together, but you can't marry?" That officially says that we don't care if you are married or not if you have kids, which isn't the usual conservative opinion. Maybe that is Derb's eccentric position? I hope not.

My hope is that he will reconcile this by looking into same-sex conception and agreeing that it is unethical and should be prohibited. We just need a simple law that sets harsh penalties for all the parties involved in the attempt, no matter where in the world they actually carry out the procedure.

The only thing with a right to conceive children is a marriage, using the genes of that marriage.

Saletan mentions Kaguya

William Saletan has finally taken note of Kaguya, and he seems to take for granted that there is a right to attempt same-sex conception. And Elizabeth Marquardt responds with the facts about the extreme risks of birth defects, and wonders if he would attempt it for his own children. But while I am happy to see Kaguya being discussed, I wish Elizabeth would argue that it shouldn't be allowed at all, that we can't let people decide for themselves if the risks are acceptable. Instead, she is essentially agreeing with Saletan that there is a right to attempt it, but suggesting that people just shouldn't. The desire to have children together is incredibly strong, and we already know the lengths that heterosexual couples go to to have children together, and how they accept the higher risks to the child. And medical privacy and the right of a marriage to attempt to conceive probably means we cannot prohibit couples from attempting IVF. But medical privacy is not an issue with same-sex couples, we do not have to allow people to conceive with someone of their own sex, there are very supportable basis to prohibit people from attempting it or having the right to attempt it.

But in spite of her again not calling for a ban, I'm very grateful for her repeating the now famous numbers and arguing against attempting it. Thanks!

"Postgenderism"

A frequent argument I hear is that "no one is advocating same-sex conception." Well, clicking around on Wikipedia, I clicked on "postgenderism."
From the entry: "George Dvorsky is a transhumanist thinker who coined the term "postgenderism" to describe a social philosophy which seeks the elimination of gender in the human species through the application of advanced biotechnology and assisted reproductive technologies." Read the whole entry; lots of people seriously advocate for this.

Missouri's egg and sperm law

Did anyone notice that in passing Missouri's Stem Cell initiative, voters there passed the nation's first egg and sperm law? And that was the least controversial part of the initiative. If that was the only issue in the Amendment, I bet it would have gotten 99% of the vote.

No person may clone or attempt to clone a human being.
"Clone or attempt to clone a human being” means to implant in a uterus or attempt to implant in a uterus anything other than the product of fertilization of an egg of a human female by a sperm of a human male for the purpose of initiating a pregnancy that could result in the creation of a human fetus, or the birth of a human being.

Of course, it is also a very useless egg and sperm law, as all it does is prohibit the actual implantation, presumably within the borders of Missouri. It does not say what would happen if a Missouri lab created the embryo with Missouri money, Missouri researchers, and Missouri progenators, but they simply drove to Illinois to perform the implantation. It doesn't look like that would break the law.

We need a Federal egg and sperm law, and it has to prohibit more than just implantation. It has to prohibit the conception of children from anything other than a man's sperm and a woman's egg, and I mean conception in the most conceptual meaning conceivable. It has to rule out the very idea of a person that isn't the union of a man and a woman's gametes, and prohibit people from attempting realize that idea no matter what country they plan on doing it in. And it has to have no statute of limitations, it has to be enforceable when any of the parties involved in the attempt return to US soil. (The person created is not a party to the attempt, obviously. But the progenators, the scientists, and the owners of the lab would all be guilty and subject to fines and imprisonment).

Other countries would surely follow in enacting egg and sperm laws, and the UN is already way ahead on this issue, with both a cloning ban (that the US has not ratified) and a declaration of the rights of children (that the US has not ratified). If there is some Island of Dr. Sullivan where same-sex couples can conceive children, they will have to live the rest of their lives there.

Some exchanges on other blogs

I googled "same-sex conception" and found lots of my own posts on other blogs, where I have tried to introduce the bloggers to issue of same-sex conception, usually to no avail. These arguments are all pretty similar, you might want to read some of them to see how they usually end up with the other person "bowing out".

Balkinization (and an old one here)
Blue Mass Group (and here and here)
Alas, A Blog
Creative Destruction (and here and here)
Marriage Debate (Maggie has refused to talk about same-sex conception)
Greater Boston Blog
Althouse Blog (and her only response here)

Stem cell article taken down

The GayCityNews article "Scientist's hope of two genetic dads" has been removed from their site. Does that have anything to do with my publicity campaign? I suspect it does, as there is a blatant effort to keep people ignorant of this field of research. But they can't remove the archived copy on the web.archive.org site, and I'll copy the text of the article as a comment to this post just in case.

Oh, and here is the website of Dr. Richard Scott's fertility company, Reproductive Medicine Associates.

10,000 flyers

I've passed out 10,000 flyers now, and my sign has been read by probably ten times that number, so my estimation is that 100,000 people are now aware that there is such a thing as same-sex conception.

"The Revolution in Parenthood"

Elizabeth Marquardt at FamilyScholars.org and the Institute of American Values has just published a remarkable report on everything going on lately with marriage and parenting and conception technology. She includes the work being done on same-sex reproduction technology, and asks the question in footnote 84 "How can anyone even consider experimenting with human embryos and children in this way?"

Well, the answer is, they can consider it because it is not prohibited. They are almost obligated to consider it, because it's a legal solution to the problems of donors and step families and all the other problems in the report. How can they not consider it? So, in the serious discussion she calls for, I raise this point right away: We have to take this choice out of people's hands. We have to prohibit it, so that people cannot even consider experimenting with human embryos and children in this way. We have to tell researchers what to work on and what not to work on, so that they do the boring stuff like keep us existing people healthy.

Congratulations to Elizabeth, this report is a real masterpiece, a great work. (and footnote 84 warmed my heart, I've typed those numbers on her blog so many times!)

My letter to the Governor

I mailed off a letter to Governor Romney today. They say letters will be answered in one to two weeks and I "will get a response." It's kind of long so I will copy it as a comment to this post.

Flyer Campaign pt 1

Well, it's primary day here in Massachusetts, and we've just finished passing out 3,000 flyers all over the state. Thanks to everyone who took it and read it, and thanks to my friends for passing them out with me. It was gratifying to see how much interest there was in this topic. People would stop in their tracks and stand and read the whole flyer, and come back and ask questions. It was heartening to hear that most people are very opposed to this research.

Most importantly, I think the flyer succeeded in bringing this issue to the attention of the candidates. They heard from people.

I was thrown out of a Reilly event in Malden, literally picked up and thrown out the door, because I showed up with these flyers. I had agreed already not to distribute them inside, but I wanted to have them with me, as they are the key to the flyering campaign, pt 1. I wasn't about to let them shut me up for the whole duration of the event and not get a chance to present one to Reilly or talk with him about it. So I was told to leave, and since I was being kicked out anyway, I decided I may as well hand them out to everyone I could until the guy literally and loudly threw me out. Reilly campaign staffers hoped for less of a scene, but they didn't want me there either. I retreated to the sidewalk and continued to pass them out, but had to split cause they said they called the police for tresspassing or something. So that was fun.

And a guy from Fox25 News took interest while we were at the State House yesterday, and said they might think about running a feature story on the issue. So that is cool too.

After today the race will be down to four (Kerry Healy, Christy Mihos, Grace Ross, and whoever wins the Dem primary) so it is time for a new flyer, and Flyer Campaign pt 2.

The Compromise

I propose a compromise to resolve the marriage debate that I think everyone should support. It is based on the univerally acknowledged need for same-sex procreation to be thoroughly examined and declared safe before allowing any lab to attempt to create a person that is not the union of a man and a woman. Until same-sex conception is declared safe and acceptable, same-sex couples should not have a right to attempt it, and this difference in rights from both-sex marriages (which all have a right to attempt to conceive) would simply be acknowledged in name. If and when same-sex conception is considered safe and Congress decides to allow same-sex couples to attempt to conceive, they will do that by changing same-sex civil unions to marriages. Marriage will continue unchanged, always granting the couple conception rights.

In return, the federal government would officially recognize state civil unions as if they were marriages, including paying the social security and tax benefits that the federal government gives marriages. (and the federal government could encourage all states to offer civil unions, since their main objection (that they are marriage in all but name) would no longer be true)

The "tradtitional marriage" side would get to preserve the word marriage, and clearly differentiate it from civil unions in the most substantial way, preserving equal conception rights for all people and preventing unethical manufacture of genetically modified people. This would ban reproductive cloning also, effectively ending that debate as well. (It would not affect the debate about therapuetic cloning, as that does not attempt to create people). The cost of federal benefits for civil unions would be quite minimal, though it certainly is a cost.

The SSM side would get federal benefits and a much greater liklihood of civil unions in all 50 states. They would only give up something that is not even possible and might never be, but they would give up the pretense that same-sex couples have equal rights to both sex couples and acknowledge that people only have a right to conceive with someone of the other sex.

The people who do not support this compromise should have to convince us that, depending on why they don't support it, same-sex couples should be allowed *today* to attempt to conceive children together in spite of the risks, or that committed civilly-unioned same-sex couples should not be entitled to federal benefits. Update 2/14/2013: This was the original proposal of the Egg and Sperm Civil Union Compromise in 2006. It is still the same, except now I specify that Civil Unions would have to be defined by the states as "marriage minus conception rights" to receive federal recognition as if they were marriages.

Are the pundits giving cover for SSC?

Why has Maggie Gallagher never stated a position on banning Same-sex conception? Why does Sara Butler Nardo say she thinks same-sex couples should have the same reproductive rights as male-female couples?

Could it possibly be that they are not against SSC? DO they feel that it is not something that can be banned? Would they just rather not think about it?

whatever the case, the refusal of the leading 'pro-marriage' pundits to even acknowldge that there is an issue is a big problem, because lots of people think that pro-marriage pundits are doing all they can, making the best arguments, and manning the brigades.

I'm hoping Maggie will explain her position here.

"in three to five years"

This article quotes a fertility doctor who says he expects to see children come out of new technology that uses stem cells to help same-sex couples have children together in three to five years.

Jacoby misses chance

It's great that Jeff Jacoby brings up the question of adult consensual incest, but he missed an opportunity to educate about marriage. Siblings are not allowed to marry, because marriage is a license to procreate, and siblings are not allowed to procreate (hence their being thrown in jail for incest). Marriages that are found to be between siblings are immediately declared null and void, even if they have no children and don't intend to have children, because only couples that have a right to have children together are allowed to be married.
The interesting question then is do same-sex couples have a right to have children together? The technology to create a child genetically related to two same-sex parents is currently being developed. In experiments in mice, it took 457 tries to get one mouse, named "Kaguya", to survive to adulthood, with the other 456 all dying at various stages along the way (10 were born alive but died shortly afterwards). I feel that the risks to the child are far too great, and will always be far too great, to allow this sort of experimentation in humans. Same-sex procreation must be prohibited, along with all other forms of procreation that do not combine a man's sperm and a woman's egg. Civil unions could be created to give committed same-sex couples, and perhaps even siblings, most of the rights of marriage, but they should not be given the right to attempt to procreate together that is the right of every marriage.

Causes in Common

Here's a LGBT website that makes some strong claims for procreation rights. Basically, they want no regulation at all, and they insist that it must be affordable and safe (meaning, we subsidize the research and pay for the procedures), so that they have the same practical ability to have children that opposite sex marriages have naturally. While they don't mention same-sex procreation and seem to focus on access to donor conception and surrogacy, there is no doubt that when they say they want full autonomy to make reproduction decisions, that they are opposed to any ban on anything. So, it is not just me who points out how gay rights are in conflict with responsible ethical procreation, gay rights groups are not very shy about it either. When gay rights groups said it was about hospital visitation, they were not telling the whole truth.

Another scholar on board!

It's picking up steam now. David Blankenhorn has made a presentation (read it here) in which he also calls for "children's rights":

2. Every child has the right to a natural biological heritage, defined as the union of the father’s sperm and the mother’s egg. Society should typically refrain from actions that would efface or deny the child’s natural biological heritage, or what the French philosopher Sylvianne Agacinski calls the child’s double origin.

He bases much of his thinking on the the testimony of Narelle Grech, so I hope it's not too self-congratulatory to point out that she said back in February: "Johnny Moral, I think you are tops! All of your comments have made me smile, and say “yeah!” out loud." I am very proud of that, but of course, that was a while ago, I probably now have competition from David Blankenhorn and Margaret Somerville for who is "tops".

Children's Rights

Margaret Somerville has written a new column here in which she calls for new legislation of "children's rights." She writes:

These rights should include: (1) The right to be conceived with a natural biological heritage -- that is, to have unmodified biological origins -- in particular, to be conceived from a natural sperm from one identified man and a natural ovum from one identified woman; and (2) the right to know the identity of one's biological parents.

This is better language than the PCBE's proposal (which this site is dedicated to enacting) because she adds the words "unmodified", "natural", "identifiable", and "man" and "woman". I agree that the law must add those important words, or else someone will try to call a sperm an egg or something (in spite of the proper defintion of sperm as being a "male gamete", ie, the gamete of a male).
And she is doing a great job of selling it by tying it in with donor conception, and referring to the growing chorus of donor conceived adults who want to save other people from being conceived the way they were. I wouldn't have thought to consider these issues together, but by putting them under the same heading of "children's rights", she comes up with a great new approach.
I disagree with her choice to imply that same-sex marriage can coexist with her first right, as it would create, for the first time in history, marriages that, by law, cannot procreate. Usually, we don't give marriage licenses to couples that are prohibited from procreating together, and I think it is a terrible mistake to start now. I assume she does that so that "children's rights" don't get caught up in the SSM debate, and it's true they are important on their own. But I think it works better to link them together.

Egg and sperm from stem cells

This article says they've now 'proved' that egg and sperm can be derived from embryonic stem cells. The article doesn't say if either sperm or eggs could be made from the same person's cloned embryo, but I assume so. Would this be a way for a same-sex couple to get around an egg and sperm law? No, mainly because of safety issues again, which are insurmountable. The article notes that it would have to be proven safe, because "the culture process may cause genetic changes". Also, by definition, eggs come from women, and sperm from men, so even if you created something that had a tail and could fertilize an egg, if it was a woman's gamete, then it could not be called a sperm, it could only be called an egg that functioned like a sperm. This process has already been forseen by the President's Council, which is why they specified that the egg and sperm should be derived from adults in their recommendation.
Also, there are more than just safety issues involved. Even if it were someday safe for two women or two men to have a baby together, we should still prohibit it for cultural/societal/human reasons. People should be created equal, the same way, with a mother and a father. Since we are all just one sex, it is good that the two sexes need each other to cooperate to create a new life, which again is just one sex, again needing to come together with the other sex to reproduce. Sexual reproduction connects us to the rest of humanity not just vertically through our children, but horizontally, through our need for the other sex. Being impossibly created in a laborotory would connect us more to the products of technology and consumerism. We'd empathize with toasters.
But would this be a valid way to restore fertiity for people who did not have healthy gametes? I don't think so, though the goal is laudable (though embryo cloning not the way to go about it). It would not have the last two problems, of course, but certainly would still have the insurmounable safety issue. The only way to justify the inherent risk of childbirth is that it is natural and necessary after pregnancy, and marriage gives couples the right to sexual intercourse which often results in pregnancy. But conceiving a child using technology is not natural or necessary, so that risk can be avoided. There is no right to do whatever it takes to create offspring, for male-female couples or same-sex couples.

Salon: don't worry your pretty little heads

Salon has a lame article entitled the future of reproductive sex. The author takes the usual inexplicable "head in the sand" position that successfully using these techniques will be very difficult if not impossible, few people would use it if it ever was possible, it will probably not replace regular sex if people did want to use it, so therefore, there is no need to worry about it. Go back to drinking your beer, everyone. Huh? That would mean that the only case the author feels we should have reason to worry is if it were so safe and successful that everyone used it and it replaced sex!! He doesn't say where the downside is in banning it right now, he just says we are so far away that all we should do today is have fun getting drunk and laughing about it. What overseer arrogance! How much more ostrich-head-in-the-sand can you get?

Meanwhile, the research goes on, and, more tragically, people are allowed to believe that they might be able to have a child someday with a person of their same sex. That is a very cruel and anti-social thing to allow anyone to believe, given the liklihood that it will never happen. People should know with absolute certainty that the only way they will ever reproduce is with the cooperation and equal participation of a person of the other sex, so they had better learn how to get along with people of that sex now, since they'll be their child's other parent.

The discussion of artificial eggs and sperm illustrates that the PCBE's proposed language needs to be changed to "a man's sperm and a woman's egg". A child created with an "egg" artificially created from a man's DNA might have the same imprinting problems that plagued Kaguya's siblings, and so that would have to be ruled out completely. Creating children needs to be limited to couples that could naturally do so. This is the Enough point, and we are there already.

Galois on the record for SSP

Gabriel Rosenberg was wonderfully consice when I asked him about his support for same-sex procreation rights.

I would say to your most recent question, "do you think that procreation should be a right of both-sex couples only, and same-sex couples should not be allowed to procreate together by any means?" the answer is no.

Though he claims to be against radical and unsafe technologies, he offers no explanation as to who would decide what is unsafe, or exactly how unsafe it would have to be to be banned. How many attempts would have to be aborted before he would agree it was unsafe and should be banned? Would he ever? How could someone who believes that two men or two women have the same equal right to have children ever be against developing this technology? This man will stand in the way of enacting much needed ethical laws against cloning and same-sex procreation just because they conflict with his mantra that same-sex couples must be considered equal. When I told him it was time to consider adjusting to reality because his single-minded defense of same-sex rights was turning him into a monster, forced to take ugly positions on SSP, on intrusive fertility tests and risk assessments for heterosexual couples, and on the distinctions between races, he banned me from posting on his blog. But not before I got him on the record supporting SSP rights.

My Terry Schiavo comment...

I think the reason people were so adamant that Terry's was not a life worth living (which is what the argument was really about - no one claimed that OJ had a husband's right to decide if HIS wife should live or die, because her life was 'worth living') was because it will be imperative to be able to abort fetuses that don't come out right during the experimentation phase of same-sex procreation and other forms of non egg and sperm procreation. They will have to make everyone used to the idea that some lives are not worth living, and people would WANT to be aborted if they weren't coming out right. It took 457 tries to make Kaguya, and 10 pups were born. It will be much easier for human parents to justify allowing the runts to starve to death once we have been through a few Terry Schiavo cases. "They wouldn't want to live like this" they'd say.

Can't be for SSM and against SSP

Chairm's comment #11 on this Family Scholars post expresses perfectly how banning SSP but allowing SSM will change marriage:
"Thusfar, SSM advocates have claimed that their reform would just tinker with the edges, not the core of marriage. It seems to me that if the right to procreate with one's spouse would be denied as a result of state recognition of SSM, then, marriage will indeed be replaced by something else."
If marriage doesn't mean that the spouses have a right to procreate together, and if some couples are denied the right to procreate, then all of our procreation rights are in jeopardy. In this age of genetic screening and increased reliance on IVF, that's a very grave situation.

Margeret Somerville

Canada's Dr. Margeret Somerville, a McGill Law and Ethics professor, affirms that SSM would grant SSP rights:

"Same-sex marriage also raises problems regarding reproductive technologies. Society must limit the use of these technologies to protect children. But such limitations could be prohibited if they contravened same-sex couples' rights to found family, rights that come with marriage as a matter of law. I believe a child has a right not to be created from the sperm of two men or the ova of two women, or by cloning. Including same-sex relationships in marriage would support such uses of reproductive technologies. "

Read the whole thing.

California decision

The judge says :'One does not have to be married in order to procreate, nor does one have to procreate in order to be married,' he wrote. 'Thus, no legitimate state interest to justify the preclusion of same-sex marriage can be found.'

Well, that's all well and good, but if a couple does not have a right to procreate, then that couple is also not allowed to marry, even in California:

285. Persons being within the degrees of consanguinity within which marriages are declared by law to be incestuous and void, who intermarry with each other, or who commit fornication or adultery with each other, are punishable by imprisonment in the state prison.

Currently, same-sex couples have the right to attempt to procreate with SSP, but only because Congress hasn't got around to enacting the egg and sperm law yet. That law would mean that a same-sex couple, like siblings, would not have a right to procreate together, and therefore, like siblings, they would not have a right to marry each other. Because ALL MARRIAGES must have a right to procreate, regardless of the fact that it is possible and even legal to procreate without marriage.

Girl, you'll be a woman soon

I just hope that this girl doesn't let anyone sterilize her. I would hate Massachusetts to be complicit in taking away this girl's right to become pregnant someday. A "sex-change" will never produce sperm, so if she wants to have children, she will have to stay a girl. And if she stays a girl, she can use her "male-brain" to get one of those careers that Lawrence Summers was talking about. Shouldn't feminists be saying that there's nothing wrong with being a girl? When she reaches puberty, maybe she'll decide she likes dresses and want to be a woman. Why shouldn't she want to be a woman? Isn't that some sort of disorder, to not want to be your sex? Don't brains sometimes learn? Someone should arrest those crazy parents for child-neglect, fire that criminally liberal superintendent, and expose that self-interested endocrinologist, who specializes in FtM surgery.
It's also interesting that the Globe's story was so supportive and referred to her as "he", while the Herald's story referred to her as "the child".

The main point

Hello. I'd like everyone browsing to this blog to comment here on how they feel about SSP - same-sex procreation. Check out my blog posts if you like, but please don't get distracted by them. This blog is dedicated to prohibiting non egg and sperm conception. So please click on the picture of the mouse to read about Kaguya, check out the arguments at eggandsperm.org, read the the FAQ's, and then leave a comment. What do you think: is there a right to SSP, or is "marriage and procreation" a right people should have only with a person of the other sex? Can this be the distinction between marriage and civil union that everyone is looking for?

Now, this is rape!

A man Chicago is suing a woman for Sperm Theft Distress. He has to pay child support after the woman "regifted" the semen he gave to her mouth to her vagina without his knowledge. He should sue her for rape, and this child should be seen as a child born out of rape. Does that lawyer tell female rape victims that it is wrong to put the rapist in jail or claim any emotional damage because it might be damaging to the child to hear its mother claim she didnt want to be impregnated? And I can't believe that the defense admits she did this, and just thinks it is something that a woman ought to be able to do.

WHY IS MARRIAGE THE GOVERNMENT'S BIZ?

They're asking over on MarriageDebate. Well, if you seperate procreation rights from marriage, then it's hard to see why marriage is the government's business. What is obviously the government's business, though, is the welfare of its citizens. And because the creation of new citizens might happen whenever a man and a woman have intercourse, the government has an obligation to ensure that intercourse is only done by people who have made the proper binding commitments to each other and any citizens they might create. A marriage license is a public license to start doing what might make people, and along with it comes legal responsibilities. I agree with Maggie that there can't be legal responsibilities without the government being involved.

It is foolish to think that sex can be kept private, sex always takes place in public because it always has the potential to become public nine months later. No one suggests that it isn't the government's business to hold fathers and mothers responsible to their children, or even to each other. Perhaps modern child support enforcement, abortion, and paternity testing has made it seem like we can worry about responsibility if and when children arrive, but what about couples who don't have children, even after years of trying? Do they not need some public support and protection? They have no way of knowing if a baby will arrive, and must live their lives with the same responsibility for each other and their future children.

The questions about the word "morality" seem to be afraid to mention the 'f' word - is it the governments business to say it is illegal to fornicate, to have children, unless you are married? Does the mere existence of a fornication law cause people be responsible? I think, in my experience, that it does. I knew, and my girlfriends knew, that it was officially, legally, authoritatively, wrong. Sex was something that people shouldn't have unless they are married. And that was a very good excuse for either one of us to say no. And if we enforced the fornication law a little better (either of us, as well as the government) we might even see a reason to get married.

Mad About Marriage

InNewsweekly's cover story asks the question "What does it mean that adultery is now a criminal act for gay married couples?" Well, given that adultery requires sexual intercourse in Massachusetts, as long as they stay gay and don't have sexual intercourse, the crime won't be adultery. New Hampshire's Supreme Court recently ruled that way too. And "Crimes against Nature" are not made legal by marriage - in fact, marriage would seem to criminalize sodomy by making it public, whereas the acts of Mr. Lawrence were deemed legal only because they were acts done in private. Privacy was the key in Lawrence v Texas. As long as the acts were done in private, the state could not criminalize them. But privacy isn't just a matter of whether the public can see something taking place, but also if they are "open and notorious" about it. Marriage is a public license and affirmation that sex takes place in this bed. Sex itself, married or not, is always is a public act, since it potentially, and uncontrollably, creates the public. That's why Lawrence didn't apply to fornication - there's no such thing as private sexual intercourse.
And there is another legal ramification to gay marraige: people in a gay marriage are not allowed to have sexual intercourse at all: they physically can't have sex within it, and they are not allowed to marry someone with whom they can, at least as long as the marriage is "permanent." Gay marriage legally forbids the participants from ever participating in the "basic civil right" of Skinner and Loving, and, especially when combined with Massachusetts's efforts in public schools to steer children(!!!) directly into presumably "permanent and exclusive" gay marriages, is therefore as unconstitutional as sterilization ever was.

Watch these theories crumble

All five SSM arguments on Balkinization become moot:

"1. It violates sex equality to tell a man he cannot marry another man when a woman could do so." Not when it is "completely unethical" for a man to attempt to proceate with a man but completely ethical for him to attempt to procreate with a woman.
"2. Sexual orientation discrimination." Eggs and sperm don't care what the orientation of their maker is, nor does the ban on non egg and sperm procreation.
"3. Irrational discrimination." No, it's completely rational, because the scientists themselves say it would be completely unethical to attempt this in humans. Just think of the other 9 mal-formed mice that couldn't make it to adulthood, not to mention the 371 that couldn't make it to birth. It's irrational to allow people to try it on people.
"4. animus at a specific social group" You can't claim animus if the ban is completely rational, to protect the people being created.
"5. violates a fundamental due process right to marry" That fundamental right is the right to attempt procreate found in Skinner, but naturally, not using a completely unethical technology (or else, the court could have said that Skinner could still conceive with technology someday). People have a fundamental right to be straight and marry someone of the other sex, and gay marriage actually encroaches on that right.

2 women deny rape charges

Grrr. There's no such thing as homosexual rape. Rape is non-consensual sexual intercourse (sex) and that requires all the sexes. Why can't they call this sexual assault? It is really demeaning to people who actually have their reproductive choice taken from them.

Is there a right to procreate?

More and more people these days seem to think that procreation is a right of an individual, and completely independent of marriage, but there is lots of legal history that reminds us there has never been a right for an individual to procreate, but only a right to choose another person to marry with whom you may then mutually attempt to procreate. As Ampersand points out on Alas, A Blog: "ability to bear children was not a traditional ground for fault-based divorce." This means that if one of the partners is thought to be infertile after the marriage, the state would not allow the other partner to look for someone else with whom they might procreate. So clearly, the state didn't feel that anyone has been denied any civil right to procreate by being forced to remain married to a sterile person, or it would allow them to divorce and try it with someone else. (of course, now no-fault divorce is possible, but not because of a new found procreation right.) There is only a right to not be sterilized, and there is a right to marry someone and then attempt to procreate (aka, have sex). But there's no "right to procreate." Marriage is a license to attempt to procreate. If we don't want two people to attempt to procreate, we withhold the license. We withhold it from siblings due to health risks and we can withhold it from couples of the same-sex for the same reason.

I think the issue of cloning has made people think that reproduction is something that individuals do on their own, as opposed to something marriages do, a man and woman together. Also, using the term "fully human" about individuals plays into this, as though people do not need a complimentary person of the other sex to fully represent the species, and fully flower their own body's potential. I know that in this narcissistic "me" society, the idea that we should have to cooperate with someone to reproduce and share our children must be frustrating, but to take it to Randolfe Wicker's conclusion is just misanthropic.

The steroid pushers

Here's a clue into how Andrew Sullivan would answer the question about banning non-egg&sperm procreation:
"If we're all chemicals, why prefer the ones we have by chance rather than those we have by design?"
So, presumably he'd feel the same way about the genes we inherit "by chance" from our parents. But banning steroids is by design, allowing them into the game is remaining open to chance. Making an Amish-style decision to limit technology, such as I'm asking people to do with reproduction, is preferring design to chance. It IS design, of the sport. Doing nothing is chance.

Do men have children in NYT land?

This article seems to imply that only women have children. "Latina women are choosing to have smaller families" it says, citing the "fertility rate for Latina women." Marriages have children. Not men, not women. Marriages. It's hard to believe that people have trouble with this concept. People don't choose two different people to love and live with for the rest of their life and to have children with.

Adultery is legal?

Really stupid Boston Globe article on Turkey's attempt to recriminalize adultery. Is the writer aware that Adultery is a crime right here in Massachusetts? Murder is a theme of even more literature than adultery, but does that somehow mean murder is "important to European values?" In fact, crime is the theme of most literature, you can't really have literature without some sort of crime in it. What a stupid article.

And, though adultery needn't be prosecuted in order for marriage to grant procreation rights, I do think it should be, along with fornication, because it makes it clearer what marriage licenses. It seems we have forgotten. There is no right for single people to have children, no court case or law says that there is. Marriage is, and should be respected as, the only legal place to procreate. This is important to ensure equal reproductive rights for men and women. It is important for establishing the preference that people be responsible to their offspring and to the co-parent of their offspring.

www.AndrewSullivan.com - Daily Dish

Andrew Sullivan seems to be satisfied with Isreal and New Zealand, but both of these laws give only "legal recognition to same-sex couples in financial and other business matters", they do not give marriage rights. I thought that wasn't enough for Andrew? And again, the issue of procreation rights for same-sex couples is not addressed in any of the articles or the legislation, but at least SSP rights weren't inadvertantly granted with marriage.

OK, so what IS the ultimate destination?

David Frum notes that: "At every step along the way, it was obvious what the next step was - and what the ultimate destination would be. At every step along the way, proponents of same-sex marriage passionately denied that the next step was coming - or was even contemplated."
I wonder if I can prod him into answering what he thinks the "ultimate destination" is? Perhaps it's same-sex reproduction? Even that is only a tactic on the way to germline engineering and complete control of people-making. I will email him too...

My email to Andrew Sullivan

Just sent Andrew this email:

Hello Andrew,

I haven't seen your reaction to Kaguya, the fatherless mouse. What is your position on procreation rights for same-sex couples? Should a person be allowed to try to create a human Kaguya? Would banning non-egg&sperm procreation be rational?

Johnny

I wonder what he'll say? He'll probably try to claim it's unrelated to marriage. I cc'd Eve and Maggie at MarriageDebate.com, to deter him from ignoring the question. I also added links to the story on Kaguya and the President's Council, my post on MarriageDebate, and the LesbianLife link. He'd better respond!

The marriage issue

Arguments for gay marriage like this will go away after we pass the egg & sperm law, because a person will only be allowed to procreate with a person of the other sex. And there is law upon law affirming that marriage grants a right to procreate. The way to prevent people from procreating together, such as a brother and sister or mother and son or with someone married to someone else, is to deny them a marriage license. The obviousness of this perhaps blinds people to its significance. We need to prevent people from procreating with a person of their own sex as surely as we need to prevent brother and sister from procreating.

Kaguya

Here is a great essay on Kaguya, the fatherless mouse, by Nancy L. Jones of The Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity. It gets quite technical, but also addresses the social aspect. Key quote:

"Fortunately, the early commentaries on the Japanese achievement all suggest that attempts to create a human embryo from two eggs would be a crazy way for
humans to reproduce. It is tragic, though, that the main support for this assertion hinges on the health consequences for these manipulated embryos and/or a lack of availability of human eggs. While we certainly wish to protect the health of unborn children and are opposed to possible exploitation of women as egg donors, these reasons totally ignore the importance of holding sacred the sexual union between a man and woman. If Kaguya’s mode of creation were to be extrapolated to humans, the very basis of our society would be shattered—opening nearly endless possibilities for overcoming the normal reproductive barriers for mammals that requires both male and female genetic contributions."

What does Andrew Sullivan have to say about Kaguya? Gay marriage advocates cannot keep denying that this topic is important or keep hoping we won't know it exists. Kaguya exists. They must address it. Either they should demand the same right to create children together that male-female marriages have, or they should agree to relinquish the dream of having children with their partner, and with it, the demand for marriage and all the rights of marriage.

The middle ground of accepting the egg & sperm law but still insisting on same-sex marriage just won't work, because that would be a major change in marriage law. No marriages can be told they may not procreate. If we start saying some marriages do not have a right to procreate it would affect all marriages, all individuals. Procreation would be subject to a risk analysis. The only way to preserve our "basic civil right" to marry and procreate is to guarantee that all marriages have a right to procreate and everyone has a right to marry.

"Egg and Sperm" ASAP!

This Blog is hereby dedicated to enacting the proposal by the President's Council on Bioethics that we "prohibit attempts to conceive a child by any means other than the union of egg and sperm."

This law is needed to prevent going beyond what author Bill McKibben calls the Enough point. It would essentially draw the line right here, where we are today. All people would still be created equal, the union of one man's sperm and one woman's egg, with no genetic tinkering or creation of people that could not possibly exist through natural sex.

This law would mean that only a man and a woman would be allowed to procreate, and that same-sex couples would be banned from attempting to create children by combining two eggs or two sperm. More posts will follow to try to convey the importance of this law and its implications in the marriage debate.

Please add your comments or email me at john@eggandsperm.org